Recent Forum Posts
From categories:
page 1123...next »

In agreement with Atea, there is more evidence to support her argument that better display Banquo as a suitable king. To add on to her evidence, Banquo displays that he is honest and has complete comprehension of his priorities by declining to support Macbeth in murdering Duncan. In response to Macbeth asking Banquo if he shall “cleave to [his] consent”, Banquo responds that he will as long as he may still keep his “bosom franchised” and his “allegiance clear”, even when Macbeth prompted that he shall “make honor for [Banquo}” (II.i.34, II.i.38, II.i.35). The fact that Banquo knows where his loyalties lie show that he is collected and composed of the “King-becoming graces”. Banquo also shows that he would be a satisfactory leader by being stable and composed after the death of Duncan by suggesting that the members of the house “meet” and “question this most bloody piece of work” so as to find out who killed Duncan and reinstate stability within the royal family (II.iii.149-50).

Response to Atea by teddyb reckteddyb reck, 14 Nov 2013 21:06
AlexandermAlexanderm 14 Nov 2013 19:20
in discussion Hidden / Per page discussions » Act 4 Scene 3

Grace provides a valid point when saying that Malcolm has most embodied the “king-becoming graces” because of his good strategy but there is a different interpretation than Malcolm was “tricking” macduff. Instead of tricking Macbeth Malcolm is testing Macbeth to see if he is not there on behalf of Macbeth. By saying “but i have none” Malcolm wishes to test to see if Macduff is true to scotland. He doesn’t open up to Macduff until Macduff cries, “O scotland, scotland!” (IV:iii:107)(IV:iii:117). The fact that Malcolm has the intelligence to speculate Macduff’s intentions shows that he is indeed the best fit leader. Also, Malcolm says that his “poor country’s to command” and that he is willing to use the true leaderships skills he has to save Scotland (IV:iii:151).

by AlexandermAlexanderm, 14 Nov 2013 19:20
Ernie BErnie B 14 Nov 2013 19:19
in discussion Hidden / Per page discussions » Act 4 Scene 3

Jasmine has a strong argument that Banquo has most embodied "king-becoming graces" by being content with stability and having "fortitude" while Macbeth became overwhelmed by ambition. Moreover, Banquo shows that he is content with stability while talking to the witches when he says "speak then, to me, who neither beg nor fear your favors" (1:3:63). Macbeth shows that he is content with his life by not begging to be in the favor of the witches so that they could foretell a favorable prophecy. But unlike Banquo, Macbeth demands the witches to tell him more about his prophecy to become king when he says, "stay, you imperfect speakers" and "speak, I charge you" (II, III, 73) (II, III, 80). Since Macbeth demands to know more about the witches' prophecy about him becoming King while Banquo remains reserved, Banquo displays "king-becoming graces" by not letting the witches make him "rapt withal" and being content with his status in his society (IV, III, 107), (I, III, 60). Banquo also shows fortitude after he suspects that his friend Macbeth killed Duncan when he says, "by the verities on thee made good, may they not be my oracles as well, and set me up in hope?" (III, I, 8). Banquo is hopeful that the his prophecy will become true since Macbeth's prophecy did. Since Banquo remains hopeful instead of upset and angry since he suspects that his friend, Macbeth, killed Duncan and became King, he shows that he has fortitude during this time of adversity.

by Ernie BErnie B, 14 Nov 2013 19:19

When arguing that Lady Macbeth most embodies the "king-becoming graces", one must keep in mind the inherently evil actions and attitude that Lady Macbeth demonstrates throughout play (IV.iii.107). As Malcom lists the qualities of a great leader as "justice, verity, temp’rance, stableness, bounty, perseverance, mercy, lowliness, devotion, patience, courage, fortitude” Lady Macbeth's past action that challenge these qualities help to make clear that Lady Macbeth does not embody "the king-becoming graces" (IV.iii.107;108). Although Lady does portray some of these listed qualities of a leader, such as courage and fortitude, she blatantly disobeys the majority of the other qualities that Malcom lists. Taking justice and verity for instance, Lady Macbeth completely disregards these qualities in her plan to murder Duncan. In Act 1 Scene 7 Macbeth explains that "Duncan hath borne his faculties so meek, [and] hath been so clear in his great office", therefore, killing him would be unjust. Because Duncan is so blameless, it would be unfair and unjust to kill him. So, as Lady Macbeth follows through in her plot to kill Duncan, her actions clearly defy justice, outlining one of her inherit flaws. In regards to verity, Lady Macbeth clearly goes against any notion of truth through a series of lies and diversions during the plot to kill Duncan. Evidence of Lady Macbeth’s neglect of verity is apparent as she instructs Macbeth to “look like th’ innocent flower, but be the serpent under ‘t” (I.vi.76). This quote helps to understand that Lady Macbeth does not value verity or truth, therefore, showing her lacking important leadership qualities. Observing the Lady Macbeth’s obvious flaws, one can tell that there are other characters in the play, such as Malcom, that embody the “king-becoming graces” (IV.iii.107). Because Malcom proves to value most of the qualities he talks about, as seen in dealing with Duncan’s murder, he would be a far greater leader than Lady Macbeth.

Re: Lady Macbeth's Graces by benhoffnerbenhoffner, 14 Nov 2013 17:52

By saying "seek to know no more", the witches are leaving Macbeth's destiny in his own hands. They have recognized his extreme ambition for complete control. Macbeth says to the apparitions and witches, "Of Birnam rise, and our high-placed Macbeth
Shall live the lease of nature, pay his breath." Macbeth is saying that he is going to rule the kingdom of until he dies, which proves his thirst for power to the witches. Therefore, the witches say "seek to know no more" because they want Macbeth to interpret that as he wants, and whatever he sees fit to rule.

Paragraph by Luciano OrellanaLuciano Orellana, 14 Nov 2013 16:25
slushslush 14 Nov 2013 15:40
in discussion Hidden / Per page discussions » Act 4 Scene 3

While that is an interesting point, I think your interpretation of that line is incorrect. Part of why Malcolm has demonstrated the most "king-becoming graces" is also because he does not crave power, which makes him an ideal person to rule because of his humility. When Malcolm said "I have none" (IV.iii.107), he is not showing doubt in himself, he is showing his humility. After seeing what happened when his father became too cocky and confident in his position as king and let his guard down, Malcolm does not let himself think he is the lone candidate for the throne — there are others, like Macbeth, trying to usurp his power. Furthermore, this quote shows that Malcolm does not particularly want to be king, which is actually a good quality for a ruler to have, since it will make them less likely to rule tyrannically for personal gain and overstep their power. By channeling the Roman general Cincinnatus, Malcolm is demonstrating that he has a very rare, but very noble, quality that would, in fact, make him a great ruler.

by slushslush, 14 Nov 2013 15:40

While Ellery argues that Malcolm best embodies the “king becoming graces” due to his “smart decisions” to put “his safety first” because of his “foresight”, I believe it is actually Banquo who is the best embodiment of the explicitly mentioned qualities of “justice, verity, temp’rance, stableness, mercy, lowliness, devotion, courage, and fortitude” (4.3.107; Ellery; 4.7.106-109). Malcolm’s leaving, as Ellery says, is the “safest”, but runs contrary to the trait of “courage, justice, and fortitude” that are some “king becoming graces” (Ellery – 2.3.168, 4.3.107). His leaving shows that Malcolm lacks the courage to stay in Scotland, the absence of thought to seek “justice” for his father’s murder, and his self protection shows that Malcolm lacks “fortitude”, defined as bravery in the face of adversity, in this case, the “unknown murderer” ( 4.7.106, Ellery – 2.3.168). Therefore, I would argue that it is Banquo who best exemplifies the “king becoming traits” of “stability, patience, lowliness, devotion, and verity.” From the very start, Banquo demonstrates stableness in the face of the witches, as he immediately does not become “rapt withal” like Macbeth; instead, he is in charge, saying “speak to me instead” (1.3.63). Banquo also demonstrates his “devotion” to the crown, and his “loyalty and lowliness” through his reluctance to accept the witches prophecy that would make Banquo’s heirs king. While Macbeth is ambitious and hopes for the prophecy’s fulfillment, Banquo replies with the suspicious view “that tis strange [in reference to the witches’ prophecies]” as he is horrified that it implies the king’s eminent death, in order to fulfill the prophecy. His “lowliness” and humility is shown when Banquo does not take credit for his bravery. When Duncan praises Banquo for his part in the war, Banquo instead returns the praise with the words “there, if I grow, the harvest is your own”. Therefore, Banquo is truly the character that exemplifies the named “graces” that are fitting for a king.

Response to Ellery by MaggieWangMaggieWang, 14 Nov 2013 15:12

Although Malcolm has shown some leadership qualities, Banquo was the best fit to rule Scotland. Several instances when Banquo has exhibited "king-becoming graces" is when he remain loyal to King Duncan saying "the harvest is [the king's] own," and telling Macbeth that he supports the prophecy without the changing of his loyalty with Duncan and foul play (1.4.138). Banquo would even embody loyalty to the fullest by keeping true to King Duncan and acting against Macbeth in the case of action "all as the Weïrd sisters promised, and [he] fear[s] that [Macbeth] played'st most foully for 't" (3.1.2-3). Another quality that shows Banquo as fit to rule is his wisdom which is recognized by Macbeth himself, "He hath a wisdom that doth guide his valor to act in safety. There is none but he [Banquo] whose being I do fear; and under him, my genius is rebuked." (3.1.57-60). Banquo's ability to analytically think and remain loyal exhibit his arguement as best fit to rule.

Although Jack mentions that Malcolm showed a good leadership quality by potentially avoiding his death by fleeing the country, he did not seem to realize that Malcolm's leaving the country could potentially be looked upon as a cowardly act, and not a quality that an ideal leader would possess. Leaving the country to evade murderers would not be looked upon well back in the 1300s in Scotland, this wouldn't be thought of as a smart or courageous act, but as a cowardly one. However, Malcolm's initiative and secrecy with his leave was very smart and planned out. He didn't tell anyone even his wife because he had the foresight to realize that she might accidentally give up where he is going. Leaving her in the dark about the whole situation made it so she couldn't bring the murderer into having the knowledge of his location.

Both Adam and Kentaro develop strong arguments exemplifying Malcolm’s excellent strategy tactics. However, one character who also shows “king becoming graces” who has not been mentioned yet is Macduff. Macduff shows the traits and “graces” becoming of a king in his plan to go visit Malcolm and enlist him to overthrow Macbeth and reinstate Malcolm as king. This action shows unselfishness, shown by the fact that he could have wanted to become king himself, but instead he enlisted Malcolm to overtake the kingdom because he knew that having Duncan’s son would be the best thing for the kingdom. Also, the fact that he left his family vulnerable and unprotected to help his country shows a deep devotion and dedication to the people, one that no other characters in the play have shown thus far. That dedication to his people is a trait very becoming of a king. When he left, his wife called him a “traitor” and one that “swears and lies”. (4.2.53-54). However, later, when asked where her husband is, she does not insult him or scoff at the fact that he is not here to protect her and her children, but instead, Lady Macduff protects her husband saying “I hope [he] [is in] no place unsanctified where such as thou mayst find him.” (4.3.90-91). In Shakespeare’s view, the Macduffs have a healthy relationship, as the husband does not tell his wife too much information, and the wife defends and protects the husband in whatever way possible. This is a “king becoming grace” because the relationship between kings and their wives is extremely important in this play. In the case of Macbeth and Lady Macbeth, Macbeth told his wife too much information, which eventually caused trouble for him, in that she “pricked the sides of [his] intent.” (1.7.26). Macbeth is a poor example of a king in Shakespeare’s eyes and partially because of his relationship with his wife. One way Macduff shows “king becoming graces” is through his healthy, trustworthy relationship with his wife. Macduff is the character who holds the most “king becoming graces” shown by his deep devotion and dedication to his people, and his healthy relationship with his wife.

Response -Adam/Kentaro by AlinaRainAlinaRain, 14 Nov 2013 07:09
andrea_garciaandrea_garcia 14 Nov 2013 07:03
in discussion Hidden / Per page discussions » Act 4 Scene 3

Contrary to the ideas presented in Ali's argument and of those who responded to her, Banquo, although dead, is the character who has thus far most embodied "king-becoming graces"(IV.iii.107). Banquo's "lowliness(humility)" to Duncan, "devotion" to Scotland, and "justice" towards Macbeth even though they were close with one another exemplifies why Banquo would be the best fit to be king. When Duncan greeted Macbeth and Banquo when they came back from battle, Duncan told Macbeth and Banquo, respectively, "I have begun to plant thee and will labor thee full of growing. –Noble Banquo, that hast no less deserved nor must be known no less to have done so"(I.iv.32-35). Duncan is directly telling them that although they both equally deserve praise and reward for their heroism, only Macbeth will be given the reward of receiving the title as Thane of Cawdor. Banquo understands his position in this situation, but is not jealous of Macbeth our outraged at Duncan, but rather replies, "There, if I grow, the harvest is your own"(I.iv.37-38). Banquo's response to Duncan expressed his humility and devotion by accepting what has, or has not, been given to him and showing his ultimate loyalty to the king, and therefore, to Scotland. Also, once Macbeth's prophecy had been (forcefully) fulfilled, Banquo has the courage to doubt Macbeth, and say, "Thou hast it now–King, Cawdor, Glamis…and I fear thou played'st most foully for 't"(III.i.1-3). Banquo's actions prove his courage and his ability to place justice where it is fair, even though it means that he has to doubt a partner with whom he fought off an invasion with. Unlike Duncan, Banquo is able to call out people's faults, even in those he may trust the most, a quality that is fit for a king. Overall, Banquo, even after his death, remains to be the character who has truly most embodied "king-becoming graces"(IV.iii.107).

by andrea_garciaandrea_garcia, 14 Nov 2013 07:03

Although Atea is correct about Banquo embodying the qualities of a king, she fails to show the actual traits that make Banquo a perfect candidate, such as his temperance, stableness, and loyalty. Banquo is skeptical about the witches prophecy, causing him to say: "Were such things here as we do speak about? Or have we eaten on the insane root that takes the reason prisoner?" which reveals his ability to restrain himself from the witches prophecy by questioning it (1.3.86-8). Banquo's rationality helps him avoid the witches by not falling for their trick. As Banquo receives a hug from Duncan for his devotion, Banquo says that if he grows in Duncan's heart, his "harvest is [Duncans] own" demonstrating that he is reliable because he is willing to produce for Duncan (I.iv.38). Macbeth tries to get Banquo to side with him, but Banquo needs his "bosom franchised and allegiance cleared" revealing the importance of his loyalty (II.i.38). Banquo is not willing to dispose of his loyalty showing his high regard to the person or people that he devotes his loyalty too.

Banquo - Atea by Cristian_MaldonadoCristian_Maldonado, 14 Nov 2013 06:54
Teddy HurleyTeddy Hurley 14 Nov 2013 06:37
in discussion Hidden / Per page discussions » Act 4 Scene 3

While Ellery is correct that Malcolm is able to embody “king-becoming graces” because of his foresight, she forgets to mention that in addition to this applicative trait, Malcolm is a cunning strategist. (4.3.107) Rather than welcome Macduff into his arms as an ally, he first tests the thane. He claims to have various flaws that would inhibit his ability to be a successful king. However, Macduff never stops that Malcolm will be a successful king, saying “for goodness dare not check thee. Wear thou thy wrongs.” (IV.iii.40-41) Through this method, Malcolm is able to confirm that the man who is willing to follow him into battle and will not desert him.

by Teddy HurleyTeddy Hurley, 14 Nov 2013 06:37

Contrary to Ellery, Banquo embodies the “king-becoming graces” because of his “patience” and his “temperance” (IV.iii.110.108). When hearing the witches’ prophecy of his decedents receiving the kingship, Banquo did not embody the quality of being “sudden” like Macbeth was in forcing the prophecy to become true (IV.iii.72). Banquo shows temperance when talking to Macbeth even though Banquo knows Macbeth “played most foully” to get the kingship (III.i.3). Banquo greets Macbeth by saying “let your highness command upon me” which shows that Banquo is holding back his thoughts on Macbeth killing Duncan. Banquo would be best fit to be the king because of his ability to have patience and self-restrain.

response to Ellery by cbjackettcbjackett, 14 Nov 2013 06:10
charlotteoster16charlotteoster16 14 Nov 2013 05:50
in discussion Hidden / Per page discussions » Act 4 Scene 3

Ellery highlights Malcolm’s rational decisions in fleeing Scotland and his cautionary test of Macduff’s loyalty. Also, though, Malcolm embodies other “king becoming graces” such as, determination, fairness, patience, and devotion to his country. Malcolm, by stating, “What I believe, I’ll wail; what know, believe; and what I can redress”, demonstrates his determination and genuine personality, which are key characteristics of a leader (145, 139). Malcolm also tests Macduff “If such a one be fit to govern, speak. I am as I have spoken,” and by doing so he illustrates caution and patience. After Macduff passed Malcolm’s test, Malcolm apologized for lying defended his reasoning, “modest wisdom plucks me from overcredulous haste,” and said, “my delight no less in truth than life,” and in doing so he displayed his patience and love of truth, both of which are attributes of rulers (147). Finally Malcolm exemplifies loyalty to Scotland, “What I am truly, is thine and my poor country’s to command,” (147). Malcolm’s perpetual loyalty to his country, and his humble servitude towards it makes him an eligible ruler who embodies “king becoming graces," (145) .

by charlotteoster16charlotteoster16, 14 Nov 2013 05:50
tom_lahorguetom_lahorgue 14 Nov 2013 05:42
in discussion Hidden / Per page discussions » Act 4 Scene 3

While I agree with Grace in that Malcolm thus far has displayed the most "King-becoming graces," however I believe that the main key traits possessed by Malcolm were his patience and stableness, rather than his strategy and foresight (IV.iii.107). After receiving the news of the death of his father, King Duncan, Malcolm was able to remain stable-minded and not react dramatically "'Your royal father's murdered.' 'O, by whom?'" (II.iii.117). Malcolm also displays patience by leaving "to England," choosing to wait patiently, while Scotland enters a period of chaos and political downfall, for his calling back to the scene of leadership in Scotland.

by tom_lahorguetom_lahorgue, 14 Nov 2013 05:42
sawilkinssawilkins 14 Nov 2013 05:14
in discussion Hidden / Per page discussions » Act 4 Scene 3

I think Christian has presented a pretty airtight argument, painting a very accurate picture of the many “king-becoming graces” that Banquo possesses (4.3.107). I entirely agree with the argument presented, and yet there do appear to be additional kingly attributes that characterize Banquo throughout the text other than those mentioned in the paragraph. In addition to the characteristics described in Christian’s argument, Banquo demonstrates “temp’rance,” as well as “justice” (4.3.108). Banquo’s temperance, or self-restraint, is primarily demonstrated through the stark contrast between the way in which Banquo responds to the Witches’ prophecies and the way in which Macbeth does. While Macbeth immediately internalizes and acts upon these prophecies regarding his future power, Banquo musters his strength to restrain himself from thinking about, much less acting on, the mysterious and uncertain predictions posed to him by the sinister Weïrd Sisters. The moment that he begins to ponder his future lineage, instead of indulging the excitement of the prophecy, Banquo implores the “merciful powers [to] restrain in [him] the cursèd thoughts that nature gives way to repose” (2.1.9-11). Instead of converting his thoughts into actions, Banquo successfully suppresses these notions. Additionally, Banquo proves that he has the desire to seek justice, yet another of the king-becoming graces. Malcolm is not the only character to immediately desire knowledge and justice regarding the identity of Duncan’s murderer. After some of the initial shock had abated, Banquo suggests that “[they] have [their] naked frailties hid,” they should “meet and question th[e] most bloody piece of work [that was Duncan’s murder] to know it further” (2.3.150-1). In this quest for the truth behind the murder, Banquo illustrates that he places the quality of justice in high esteem. Thus, in addition, to stability, patience, devotion and lowliness, Banquo also enacts the qualities of temperance and justice, therefore rendering him (or his memory) the figure most deserving of the crown.

by sawilkinssawilkins, 14 Nov 2013 05:14

Banquo embodies Malcolm's description of "king-becoming graces" most fully out of the characters. When the witches tell Macbeth the prophecy, he becomes overwhelmed and is unable to speak, but Banquo comes in and saves the day, saying "speak, then, to me, who neither beg nor fear your favors nor your hate" (I.iii.63-64). In a moment where Macbeth is taken aback by the Weïrd Sisters, Banquo shows "stableness" and "patience" by staying level-headed (IV.iii.108, 110). Additionally, it takes a certain amount of "courage" to stand up to a group of unidentified, chanting people who "look not like th' inhabitants o' th' Earth and yet are on 't" (IV.iii. 110, I.iii.42-43). He exemplifies "mercy" and "devotion" to Macbeth by protecting him in this manner (IV.iii.109, 110). Further demonstrating his devotion to Macbeth, and also "lowliness," one of characteristics Malcolm defined, when Macbeth says that Banquo's children will be heirs to the throne, Banquo focuses back on the fact that Macbeth "shall be king" (IV.iii.109, I.iii.90). Banquo continues to exhibit his stableness, as well as showing "verity," when he says, "the instruments of darkness tell us truths…to betray [us] in deepest consequence" (I.iii.136-138). He essentially is predicting that the seemingly wonderful prophecy that the witches have given Macbeth and Banquo is going to lead to bad things, which it does in the sense that Macbeth kills multiple people, including Banquo. Banquo demonstrates "stableness," "patience," "mercy," "devotion," "lowliness," and "verity," all qualities that Malcolm said were essential for someone to be fit to be king.

Jacks argument is that by Malcolm's fleeing "off to England", shows that through Malcolm's logical thought process he is able to foresee the future; hence he is a good leader. It's true, Malcolm does show some logical thought but running away to england does not justify him as good leader.By Malcolm retreating back to England he fails to exemplify some of the key leader characteristics such as patience, courage, fortitude, and loyalty; therefor Malcolm does not best embodies the "king-becoming graces." Malcolm does put two and two together and realize that "the nearer the blood, the nearer the bloody," and starts to fear for his own life(2.3.165-66). Malcolm doesn't have very much courage or fortitude by hiding in England. A leader who is easily scared off, wont last long. By Malcolm fleeing his only thought is of his own well being, showing he is selfish and thinks for himself before others. By leaving Malcolm is braking his loyalty to the king and his own country, Scotland. A true leader would not brake his allegiances and abandon his people so easily. So Malcolm may not be so fit for King as Jack had said, but the argument could go both ways.

erika_motterika_mott 14 Nov 2013 02:57
in discussion Hidden / Per page discussions » Act 4 Scene 3

Ali makes a good point in stating that Malcolm obtains the most “king-becoming graces,” up to this point, because of his ability to make rational decisions (4.3.107). Ali is correct in saying that Malcolm flees “to England” because he recognizes the future implications that may lead to his demise, coming from being his murdered father’s heir (2.3.162). Although, Ali leaves out a vital choice that Malcolm executes that makes him very king-like character. The strategic move to test Macduff’s loyalty to Scotland by seeing if he will react to him saying that he has “none [of the] king-becoming graces” with solicitude for him or Scotland (4.3.107). In testing Macduff’s loyalty, Malcolm demonstrates his valor in the face of adversity, and in this case, a potentially dangerous traitor sent to turn him into the “malicious” Macbeth (4.3.72). He also displays the desire to seek “verity” in a world of opacity where “fair is foul, and foul is fair,” and in doing so, he embodies a true king (4.3.8, 1.1.12).

by erika_motterika_mott, 14 Nov 2013 02:57
page 1123...next »
Unless otherwise stated, the content of this page is licensed under Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 License